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Upper 122 Giant Flag Opposition (yeah I know, kinda silly)

General ECS talk.

Unread postby robseam » Mon Nov 2, 2015 11:54:23 am

Crollaa wrote:The issue people in upper 122 had was not with BFFs in general, but rather how wildly different this one single flag was used compared to every other game over the last 6 years.

1. BFFs are almost never at the top of the GA.
2. BFFs are NEVER waved the entirety of the game.

None of the regular season ticket holders around me have any issue with the way BFFs are normally used. They get it and are used to it because we block 20% of the field max and only for portions of the game. Last night's use of that lone BFF blocked ~60% of the field for over 80% of the game.

Proposed compromise solution that won't alienate the entire upper section (that I'm pretty sure was one that people agreed to a couple years ago):
If you want a flag at the top of GA, don't wave it the entire game. Maybe take a cue from all of the other flags and put it down when they all go down.
If you want to wave a flag the entire game, either use a smaller flag or put it lower down the GA section.


These are great points!
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Unread postby JesseSFC » Mon Nov 2, 2015 12:28:14 pm

Crollaa wrote:The issue people in upper 122 had was not with BFFs in general, but rather how wildly different this one single flag was used compared to every other game over the last 6 years.

1. BFFs are almost never at the top of the GA.
2. BFFs are NEVER waved the entirety of the game.

None of the regular season ticket holders around me have any issue with the way BFFs are normally used. They get it and are used to it because we block 20% of the field max and only for portions of the game. Last night's use of that lone BFF blocked ~60% of the field for over 80% of the game.

Proposed compromise solution that won't alienate the entire upper section (that I'm pretty sure was one that people agreed to a couple years ago):
If you want a flag at the top of GA, don't wave it the entire game. Maybe take a cue from all of the other flags and put it down when they all go down.
If you want to wave a flag the entire game, either use a smaller flag or put it lower down the GA section.



This was a special match, this was a special flag, this was part of our display today was to have every large flag in the section, however a few had to be taken out do to the wind, and fear of breaking, this was the first time we have done anything like this, it will not be a every match thing, but this is our section and we have full right to put any flag where we like within it. and to wave those flags for 90 minutes if choose to.
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Unread postby Ultra666 » Mon Nov 2, 2015 12:33:52 pm

Crollaa wrote:The issue people in upper 122 had was not with BFFs in general, but rather how wildly different this one single flag was used compared to every other game over the last 6 years.

1. BFFs are almost never at the top of the GA.
2. BFFs are NEVER waved the entirety of the game.

None of the regular season ticket holders around me have any issue with the way BFFs are normally used. They get it and are used to it because we block 20% of the field max and only for portions of the game. Last night's use of that lone BFF blocked ~60% of the field for over 80% of the game.

Proposed compromise solution that won't alienate the entire upper section (that I'm pretty sure was one that people agreed to a couple years ago):
If you want a flag at the top of GA, don't wave it the entire game. Maybe take a cue from all of the other flags and put it down when they all go down.
If you want to wave a flag the entire game, either use a smaller flag or put it lower down the GA section.



1) But they can be. There is no rule against it.
2) But they can be. There is no rule against it.

And I am not aware of any agreement from a couple years ago.

This same argument comes up every year and will continue to do so until the FO addresses the obstructed view or the unhappy people find new seats.
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Unread postby Crollaa » Mon Nov 2, 2015 12:41:56 pm

Ultra666 wrote:1) But they can be. There is no rule against it.
2) But they can be. There is no rule against it.

And I am not aware of any agreement from a couple years ago.

This same argument comes up every year and will continue to do so until the FO addresses the obstructed view or the unhappy people find new seats.


I don't really care one way or the other personally and am fine with my obstructed view. I was just voicing what I was hearing from the ~30 or so other people around me who have been there since 2009 and have never raised any issue with the flags before and are usually pretty engaged with supporting.
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Unread postby Ultra666 » Mon Nov 2, 2015 12:44:23 pm

They have seats in a section that has a direct line of sight through the Supporters Section. Yes, most of the time it might not be an issue. That said, there will be a match or two every season when we do the BFF Choreo and everyone acts like it has never happened before and they lose their minds.

Time for them to consider new seats.
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Unread postby darknavi » Mon Nov 2, 2015 2:59:31 pm

Crollaa wrote:The issue people in upper 122 had was not with BFFs in general, but rather how wildly different this one single flag was used compared to every other game over the last 6 years.

1. BFFs are almost never at the top of the GA.
2. BFFs are NEVER waved the entirety of the game.

None of the regular season ticket holders around me have any issue with the way BFFs are normally used. They get it and are used to it because we block 20% of the field max and only for portions of the game. Last night's use of that lone BFF blocked ~60% of the field for over 80% of the game.

Proposed compromise solution that won't alienate the entire upper section (that I'm pretty sure was one that people agreed to a couple years ago):
If you want a flag at the top of GA, don't wave it the entire game. Maybe take a cue from all of the other flags and put it down when they all go down.
If you want to wave a flag the entire game, either use a smaller flag or put it lower down the GA section.


This is how I was feeling last night. I find it a bit silly that there can't be some sort of compromise here.

I also think it hilarious that people are saying that there is no rule saying that they can't do it, so it doesn't matter. You can do whatever you want, but you might consider making friends with your neighbors, not antagonizing them. I love the flags, but having 1 giant flag up (even when others are down explicitly) virtually 100% of the time isn't great from my point of view.
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Unread postby bougiehoolie » Mon Nov 2, 2015 3:32:39 pm

darknavi wrote:
Crollaa wrote:The issue people in upper 122 had was not with BFFs in general, but rather how wildly different this one single flag was used compared to every other game over the last 6 years.

1. BFFs are almost never at the top of the GA.
2. BFFs are NEVER waved the entirety of the game.

None of the regular season ticket holders around me have any issue with the way BFFs are normally used. They get it and are used to it because we block 20% of the field max and only for portions of the game. Last night's use of that lone BFF blocked ~60% of the field for over 80% of the game.

Proposed compromise solution that won't alienate the entire upper section (that I'm pretty sure was one that people agreed to a couple years ago):
If you want a flag at the top of GA, don't wave it the entire game. Maybe take a cue from all of the other flags and put it down when they all go down.
If you want to wave a flag the entire game, either use a smaller flag or put it lower down the GA section.


This is how I was feeling last night. I find it a bit silly that there can't be some sort of compromise here.

I also think it hilarious that people are saying that there is no rule saying that they can't do it, so it doesn't matter. You can do whatever you want, but you might consider making friends with your neighbors, not antagonizing them. I love the flags, but having 1 giant flag up (even when others are down explicitly) virtually 100% of the time isn't great from my point of view.


Just for clarity, is the big issue for you and your neighbors the one flag that was up for much of ROP? Asking seriously.
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Unread postby BlueEyedBuddhist » Mon Nov 2, 2015 3:46:56 pm

darknavi wrote:This is how I was feeling last night. I find it a bit silly that there can't be some sort of compromise here.

I also think it hilarious that people are saying that there is no rule saying that they can't do it, so it doesn't matter. You can do whatever you want, but you might consider making friends with your neighbors, not antagonizing them. I love the flags, but having 1 giant flag up (even when others are down explicitly) virtually 100% of the time isn't great from my point of view.


Here's the problem: The "compromise" you speak of is inevitably going to involve ECS not flying flags when ECS chooses.

And here's the other part of the problem with a compromise solution: ECS is already very compromised on this.

Here's the ACTUAL compromise: ECS gets three sections in the stadium where ECS members are the majority and ECS is allowed to do what they want to do.

People who do not want flags in their view have something like 37,000 OTHER seats they can choose from, across dozens and dozens of sections and with dozens of different price points, where they can choose to sit or stand.

So it seems to me that ECS has already been pretty well put in place, and any "compromise" misses the facts as they exist right now.
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Unread postby Hubcaps » Mon Nov 2, 2015 7:23:35 pm

bougiehoolie wrote:
darknavi wrote:
Crollaa wrote:The issue people in upper 122 had was not with BFFs in general, but rather how wildly different this one single flag was used compared to every other game over the last 6 years.

1. BFFs are almost never at the top of the GA.
2. BFFs are NEVER waved the entirety of the game.

None of the regular season ticket holders around me have any issue with the way BFFs are normally used. They get it and are used to it because we block 20% of the field max and only for portions of the game. Last night's use of that lone BFF blocked ~60% of the field for over 80% of the game.

Proposed compromise solution that won't alienate the entire upper section (that I'm pretty sure was one that people agreed to a couple years ago):
If you want a flag at the top of GA, don't wave it the entire game. Maybe take a cue from all of the other flags and put it down when they all go down.
If you want to wave a flag the entire game, either use a smaller flag or put it lower down the GA section.


This is how I was feeling last night. I find it a bit silly that there can't be some sort of compromise here.

I also think it hilarious that people are saying that there is no rule saying that they can't do it, so it doesn't matter. You can do whatever you want, but you might consider making friends with your neighbors, not antagonizing them. I love the flags, but having 1 giant flag up (even when others are down explicitly) virtually 100% of the time isn't great from my point of view.


Just for clarity, is the big issue for you and your neighbors the one flag that was up for much of ROP? Asking seriously.


Yes, just this one flag.
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Unread postby Thalas » Tue Nov 3, 2015 1:08:07 am

I think flags should come down when we are in possession and are attacking the Brougham End, and that flags should go up when the opposition is in possession and we're defending the Brougham End. My reasoning is similar to why the capos call for silence when we're taking a penalty, and why we go mental when the other side is taking a penalty, which worked great against SJ in the LHUSOC last year, one of my favorite matches. Perhaps even other methods to distract opposition players could be done a la Arizona State's NCAAMB distraction techniques. I haven't been much interested in basketball in decades, but the glimpse of that data tells me they may be on to something that could partially translate.

I think some were upset by the fact that we scored 2 goals while the flag was up and it blocked their view, and perhaps that's an argument for always waving that flag from this day forward, but maybe that flag also put Valdez's shot slightly off. Personally I like the flags, I don't care if my view is obstructed, but there were dozens if not over a hundred counter chanting for that one big flag at the top center of GA to come down, and the negative waves sucked. That flag stayed up even when the capo called for flags down, but I think that flag can upset the other side as much as it upset some of upper, and I don't think that flag, or any flag, should be waved in full view of our guys while they're lining up a shot or a cross, and that was the case for most of the second half the other night.
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Unread postby Powl » Tue Nov 3, 2015 2:31:29 am

Thalas wrote:...
I think some were upset by the fact that we scored 2 goals while the flag was up and it blocked their view, and perhaps that's an argument for always waving that flag from this day forward, but maybe that flag also put Valdez's shot slightly off.
...


Just to keep the record straight: the giant flag was down for our second goal.
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Unread postby Ultra666 » Tue Nov 3, 2015 5:36:41 am

Thalas wrote:I think flags should come down when we are in possession and are attacking the Brougham End, and that flags should go up when the opposition is in possession and we're defending the Brougham End. My reasoning is similar to why the capos call for silence when we're taking a penalty, and why we go mental when the other side is taking a penalty, which worked great against SJ in the LHUSOC last year, one of my favorite matches. Perhaps even other methods to distract opposition players could be done a la Arizona State's NCAAMB distraction techniques. I haven't been much interested in basketball in decades, but the glimpse of that data tells me they may be on to something that could partially translate.

I think some were upset by the fact that we scored 2 goals while the flag was up and it blocked their view, and perhaps that's an argument for always waving that flag from this day forward, but maybe that flag also put Valdez's shot slightly off. Personally I like the flags, I don't care if my view is obstructed, but there were dozens if not over a hundred counter chanting for that one big flag at the top center of GA to come down, and the negative waves sucked. That flag stayed up even when the capo called for flags down, but I think that flag can upset the other side as much as it upset some of upper, and I don't think that flag, or any flag, should be waved in full view of our guys while they're lining up a shot or a cross, and that was the case for most of the second half the other night.



Passion is organic, and not set to a timer.
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Unread postby TheBeachGirl » Tue Nov 3, 2015 12:42:32 pm

Thalas wrote: Perhaps even other methods to distract opposition players could be done a la Arizona State's NCAAMB distraction techniques. I haven't been much interested in basketball in decades, but the glimpse of that data tells me they may be on to something that could partially translate.


OT: as an ASU Alum, thanks for referencing my Sun Devils and the Curtain of Distraction. Going to Tempe and will get to see this in person for men's BB home opener later in the month. :)
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Unread postby FIGHTNWIN! » Tue Nov 3, 2015 2:01:04 pm

I’ve quickly read through both threads on this subject. Seems there were TWO BFF flag bearers that pissed people off, one in the top section of lower GA and me between the BAD A$$ MUTHAF#@&ING battle drummers (who should always get free drink on us of their choice every match which I will do from here on out).
You know my personal feelings about the ECS/GA section from my post on page one. I think the section is designated for passionate fans who show support with all kinds of $h!t which includes BBF. I think the lead Capo should be in charge flags/colors up/down and we should all do are best to follow his/her lead.
I love and respect diversity which is why I love the ECS, so many diff peoples pogoing together to fight our enemies on the pitch. There does not seem to be an easy solution to keep us all happy while supporting our team.
Ask yourself “what kind of fan am I?”, we all have different ways to show support. Do you like to lounge around nude with a bucket of ice cream? - Than stay at home and watch the match. Are you the type that wants a clear view of the pitch? - Than you must move far from the ECS/GA section. If you like the energy of the ECS section and sing songs but still want to see the match unobstructed than get seats near the ECS/GA but NOT behind the lower ECS/GA. If you want to give 100% for our men on the pitch then learn the songs, grab a flag/two pole and join us within the ECS/GA section. I would like our boys on the pitch to give the badge 100% every time they play which is why I do the same. This is common sense right?
I think everyone complaining about flags are pretty much screwed until the established ways are changed, ways that are endorsed by the FO.

Things change; we may not always have the amazing ECS/GA section the founders/current leaders have made possible for us. One day, it may all go away – I hope it the whole stadium turns into a mega ECS/GA like section or at least like the Great Yellow Wall of Borussia.

Easy fixes that can be implemented immediately
1 – Erect BFF flag poles in their areas (secure it to the seat somehow) so people can see where the views will be obstructed and seat themselves accordingly. This is similar to what I did before the last match – as soon as I got in from the March I started waving the BFF to let everyone know behind me this will be in YOUR way so don’t stand there. I do care about you a little.
2 – Get into the Clink early so you can sit closer to the field – DUH!

Long terms solutions
1 – I seriously considered getting relocated from GA to another section after the match in question and starting my own section somewhere in the Clink I could wave my flag all match (like a seat against the wall with no one behind), you can move to an area with no flags if you don’t like em’.
2 – Maybe we can try something like only allowing BFF and larger in lower 122 all the way up to the top of 122 (a column of guaranteed obstructed views). 120 and 123 from bottom to top will be designated 3x5’ and smaller (seems like no one complains when I wave my 3x5 all match). This would have to be a long term solution since STH in upper 122 many not agree.
Image

3 – Maybe we can try BFF flags and larger only allowed in lower half of 121, 122, and 123 with smaller flags allowed everywhere they are already currently allowed. This would still suck for upper 120-124 because the poles are so long.
Image

I prefer to keep it as is, follow the leadership of ECS and listen to the Capo conducting during matches. I was warned about obstructed views before purchasing tickets. It was made known about a week out on the forums we would deploy everything for this match, I suggest you review the forums before game day so you can be emotionally ready for that BBF in your way. So basically leadership should decide and relay that info to the Capo/Tifo Crews to enforce during the match, I will follow instructions.

EDIT:
I read some people talking about this abnormal flag waving behavior during that match. I will tell you that the person between our drummers has always waved his 3x5’ flag during the whole match (minus the national anthem and Capo orders); the only thing diff that day was he waved a BFF.
I don’t care if you personally don’t like me or not, but DO care about the good of the whole. I will consider maybe waving my flag every other song if you ask nicely (^_^). From the input I have personally received, the praises far outnumber the complaints.
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Unread postby mikewarbington » Tue Nov 3, 2015 2:38:31 pm

Thalas wrote:I think flags should come down when we are in possession and are attacking the Brougham End, and that flags should go up when the opposition is in possession and we're defending the Brougham End.


That idea might sound good on paper, but in practice that would be entirely impractical and antithetical to the whole reason the flags are waived in the first place. For one thing, the direction of the play changes so often that it would be just about impossible to raise and lower the flag fast enough to keep up. For another thing, we should be showing support to the team when they're attacking and generating momentum, not taking our foot of the gas right when they're heating up.
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