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Non-stop waving of giant flags

General ECS talk.

Unread postby RatCity » Mon Nov 2, 2015 12:18:22 pm

Funny. I keep seeing people mad about flags talking about how they or others who were upset about flags almost came to violence against those they were upset at. But then those that want flags are considered hostile. That doesn't seem to add up.

Regardless, i suggest you direct your anger towards the ticket reps that apparently misrepresented the seats you've been sold. We've been telling them for years that they need to make it clear that views will be blocked.

Sorry you didnt have a good time.
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Unread postby Ultra666 » Mon Nov 2, 2015 12:28:11 pm

uwmike wrote:This thread perfectly sums up why many people dislike or have problems with ECS. It's NOT the flag waving, chanting, etc. but it's the hostility many of you show towards your fellow supporters. If this supporters group wants growth, then alienating other Sounders supporters by telling them to fuck off or say other harsh things is not the way to go. I support waving flags, but when you're waving a flag in the first few rows, your view is not the same as someone 20-30 rows behind you who will sometimes miss a big play as a result, so have some more sympathy at least. We're not the 1906 Ultras, but we sure aren't close to being the most welcoming supporters group in the league.


So, ECS stating that "we are allowed to wave big flags in the lower Supporter Section" is somehow hostile?

From what I can tell, the people that were complaining were far more hostile and divisive.

While growth is cool, we need people that understand Supporter Culture and the vision that the ECS founders had when creating this group.
We always intended The Brougham End to be more Westfalenstadion, and less Emirates (sorry to my Arsenal F.C. friends) :lol:
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Unread postby uwmike » Mon Nov 2, 2015 12:33:44 pm

Ultra666 wrote:
uwmike wrote:This thread perfectly sums up why many people dislike or have problems with ECS. It's NOT the flag waving, chanting, etc. but it's the hostility many of you show towards your fellow supporters. If this supporters group wants growth, then alienating other Sounders supporters by telling them to fuck off or say other harsh things is not the way to go. I support waving flags, but when you're waving a flag in the first few rows, your view is not the same as someone 20-30 rows behind you who will sometimes miss a big play as a result, so have some more sympathy at least. We're not the 1906 Ultras, but we sure aren't close to being the most welcoming supporters group in the league.


So, ECS stating that "we are allowed to wave big flags in the lower Supporter Section" is somehow hostile?

From what I can tell, the people that were complaining were far more hostile and divisive.

While growth is cool, we need people that understand Supporter Culture and the vision that the ECS founders had when creating this group.
We always intended The Brougham End to be more Westfalenstadion, and less Emirates (sorry to my Arsenal F.C. friends) :lol:


No, it's more people telling each other to fuck off and what not that gets old.
Yes I see we are less EPL type of supporters, but it is not like Westfalenstadion either in my opinion in terms of how people interact with one another. I don't have a problem, I'm just pointing out that it seems like many people have problems, since people seem to often be stubborn.
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Unread postby Ultra666 » Mon Nov 2, 2015 12:37:32 pm

It gets really old dealing with this season after season, so I imagine that when someone was yelled at they may have reacted in a way that was less than friendly.
I doubt people were told to fuck off for just coming down and asking nicely to limit the big flag use.
I have seen people throw beer bottles at flag wavers, put their hands on flag wavers, etc...

I wonder what would happen if you asked the guys at Westfalenstadion to lower their flags....
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Unread postby uwmike » Mon Nov 2, 2015 12:48:08 pm

Ultra666 wrote:It gets really old dealing with this season after season, so I imagine that when someone was yelled at they may have reacted in a way that was less than friendly.
I doubt people were told to fuck off for just coming down and asking nicely to limit the big flag use.
I have seen people throw beer bottles at flag wavers, put their hands on flag wavers, etc...

I wonder what would happen if you asked the guys at Westfalenstadion to lower their flags....


It's more of an issue at CenturyLink than Westfalenstadion though due to stadium design. Since the incline there is so steep, a single flag waver only blocks the views significantly for people a few rows in front of him/her, but at CenturyLink it really has an effect on what seems to be nearly the entire section.

Here's hoping our the supporter's section is made incredibly steep and wider on that distant day in the future when we get our own building.
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Unread postby BlueEyedBuddhist » Mon Nov 2, 2015 2:02:15 pm

I think everyone needs to chill a notch, and here's why:

davethehawaiian wrote:Having this occur periodically is something we signed on for when choosing to join the supporters section, however if the flags never come down and our view is obstructed for the entire 90 minutes it becomes a problem.


You guys that are telling davethehawaiian "fuck off if you don't like us", or words to that effect, are missing an important point: DAVE IS ONE OF US.

He's entitled to state his opinion. Yeah, maybe he didn't do it as artfully as you want, or would like, but he's a member WHO WILLINGLY SIGNED ON TO BECOME ECS.

So chill the fuck out, because being all super-aggro and treating him like he's not one of us only leads to that shitty reputation that ECS has. It's not welcoming, it's exclusionary, and it's wrong.

That said...

davethehawaiian wrote:As mentioned in another thread these flags are starting to distract from what should be the ECS's goal. We should be united in our passion for the team and the city they represent! And not a vain attempt to be the coolest looking, hardest acting supports group in the league (are we really trying to be the fucking 1906 Ultras?!). The ECS officers need to take these complaints seriously or risk more discord and potential violence among our members. We all come to watch the Sounders triumph over any foolish enough to come before them, and we sing and chant in the hopes that we can influence our team and spur them on to victory. That is the foundation of the ECS, take that away and what are we left with?


We're united, Dave. The point of the flags is to visually show our support. I, for one, appreciate that you joined and want to support, but the reality is that it comes with flags- sometimes really Big Fucking Flags that block the views from large parts of 121-123.

We want you. We want you to have a good time at the games. But part of the deal that you're agreeing to is that we're gonna wave flags.

So, IMO, you should consider moving. Get seats out in 120 or 124. Relocate to where you can be an ECS supporter, enjoy singing and being part of it, but also being able to see more of the game.

That's the easiest solution. It's not rejecting you; it's saying "this is how we roll here, and if you wanna support anyway, please find an excellent spot to do so."
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Unread postby Crollaa » Mon Nov 2, 2015 3:04:03 pm

Paul, a big chunk of the issue last night was that we'd thought we'd already moved into a section where we could support with minimal flag obstruction. Last night was the first time in 6 years I sympathized with the flag down people because of how differently the flag was used in duration combined with location.
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Unread postby bougiehoolie » Mon Nov 2, 2015 3:31:22 pm

uwmike wrote:
Ultra666 wrote:
uwmike wrote:This thread perfectly sums up why many people dislike or have problems with ECS. It's NOT the flag waving, chanting, etc. but it's the hostility many of you show towards your fellow supporters. If this supporters group wants growth, then alienating other Sounders supporters by telling them to fuck off or say other harsh things is not the way to go. I support waving flags, but when you're waving a flag in the first few rows, your view is not the same as someone 20-30 rows behind you who will sometimes miss a big play as a result, so have some more sympathy at least. We're not the 1906 Ultras, but we sure aren't close to being the most welcoming supporters group in the league.


So, ECS stating that "we are allowed to wave big flags in the lower Supporter Section" is somehow hostile?

From what I can tell, the people that were complaining were far more hostile and divisive.

While growth is cool, we need people that understand Supporter Culture and the vision that the ECS founders had when creating this group.
We always intended The Brougham End to be more Westfalenstadion, and less Emirates (sorry to my Arsenal F.C. friends) :lol:


No, it's more people telling each other to fuck off and what not that gets old.
Yes I see we are less EPL type of supporters, but it is not like Westfalenstadion either in my opinion in terms of how people interact with one another. I don't have a problem, I'm just pointing out that it seems like many people have problems, since people seem to often be stubborn.


I'm going to gently state that in 100% of 4-5 situations involving flags I was in last night, the aggression was completely from those complaining. That may not be the case right here, but I'm saying flat out there was no outward violence or aggression by our security or leadershipdefending flags. If you saw some and want us to know about it, please pm me anytime.
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Unread postby malcolmest » Mon Nov 2, 2015 3:47:13 pm

Crollaa wrote:Paul, a big chunk of the issue last night was that we'd thought we'd already moved into a section where we could support with minimal flag obstruction. Last night was the first time in 6 years I sympathized with the flag down people because of how differently the flag was used in duration combined with location.


I would have to agree, I've been sitting in the upper 122 section for about 4 seasons now and am usually one to scoff at the people around me freaking out about flags. Last night was a different beast though. I expect to be blocked by a flag and have no issue with it. But when it starts creating a problem within our group I think it is something that should be seriously looked at by our leadership.

I think there could be a simple resolution with more organization, more BFFs throughout the crowd that rotate instead of holding one BFF most of the game in 1 area affecting only one group of supporters. I think that is really where the issue stems from. When the supporters are chanting "Put the flag down" loud enough to be heard on TV (not sure about that but it sure seemed like it), I think it just shows stubbornness within the leadership. Simply put that flag down and raise up another (maybe more) in a different spot. Pretty easy resolution in my opinion.
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Unread postby BlueEyedBuddhist » Mon Nov 2, 2015 3:50:04 pm

Crollaa wrote:Paul, a big chunk of the issue last night was that we'd thought we'd already moved into a section where we could support with minimal flag obstruction. Last night was the first time in 6 years I sympathized with the flag down people because of how differently the flag was used in duration combined with location.


Fair enough... then *that* should be the focus of the conversation. "Why the change?"

That's a very reasonable question to ask, and members affected by the change damn well *should* be asking.

Instead, we get people challenging ECS's right to wave flags in the first place, or threatening the group... and that type of attack is going to naturally be met with defensiveness and anger in return.
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Unread postby Crollaa » Mon Nov 2, 2015 4:02:45 pm

BlueEyedBuddhist wrote:
Crollaa wrote:Paul, a big chunk of the issue last night was that we'd thought we'd already moved into a section where we could support with minimal flag obstruction. Last night was the first time in 6 years I sympathized with the flag down people because of how differently the flag was used in duration combined with location.


Fair enough... then *that* should be the focus of the conversation. "Why the change?"

That's a very reasonable question to ask, and members affected by the change damn well *should* be asking.

Instead, we get people challenging ECS's right to wave flags in the first place, or threatening the group... and that type of attack is going to naturally be met with defensiveness and anger in return.


Absolutely agree and it is why I framed the issue as I did. I don't give a Fuck about random first timers, but the people around me that I'm speaking for are long time paid and participating ecs members who moved to the very back of upper 122 and have been perfectly happy for years up there before last night.

So is there a reason for the sudden change in flag behavior that couldn't have been avoided by a change in duration or location of that one flag?
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Unread postby malcolmest » Mon Nov 2, 2015 4:06:26 pm

BlueEyedBuddhist wrote:
Crollaa wrote:Paul, a big chunk of the issue last night was that we'd thought we'd already moved into a section where we could support with minimal flag obstruction. Last night was the first time in 6 years I sympathized with the flag down people because of how differently the flag was used in duration combined with location.


Fair enough... then *that* should be the focus of the conversation. "Why the change?"

That's a very reasonable question to ask, and members affected by the change damn well *should* be asking.

Instead, we get people challenging ECS's right to wave flags in the first place, or threatening the group... and that type of attack is going to naturally be met with defensiveness and anger in return.


This is precisely the conversation I was looking to have. By no means do I want BFFs gone! In fact I want them to block my view from time to time because I understand how color is a great representation of support. If the ECS leadership feels we need to have BFFs flying for extra long during certain matches, let it be known in the pre-match email. I think BFFs could be better organized so that it doesn't single out a specific group of people in an area. I'm certainly not one to chant for the flags to come down but I understood why it was happening last night more than any other game I've been to.
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Unread postby aeolsen » Mon Nov 2, 2015 4:07:19 pm

The change was partially because it was a play-off match and partially because we got more participation in our chaos day than we have in the past.

For play-off matches there is an expectation that we need to bring it more than usual, the big silk flags don't come out all that often because they are difficult to handle and we break a lot of poles on them. When they come out they are usually waived until someone can't do it anymore or the pole breaks because if you set it down it's really not easy to get back up. These aren't used every game and that will continue to the the case
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Unread postby RatCity » Mon Nov 2, 2015 4:22:31 pm

I dictate flag use based on peoples willingness to wave them. People wanted to wave flags last night. We put an "abnoxious amount" of them in the section and the result was exactly what i wanted. Constant unwaivering supporter and color. This morning i woke up to multiple player quotes and outside perspectives siting the role and inspiration the ECS played in last nights match. The section was loud. So loud i wasnt even aware of most of these issues. The stadium was loud. You could not even tell we went down a goal. It was brutal. It was powerful. It was punishing. I am sorry if people didnt have a good time. But i am not sorry that the ecs did exactly what their job is. Inspire the players to defeat their enemies with UNWAIVERING clear support. I wont promise you this will never happen again. I wont promise you there will be changes. But this was one game and a big one at that and it might be different next week. But People WERE passionate last night and felt like showing that passion in the form of relentless flag waiving. I KILL myself every year trying to figure out how to breed that kind of dedication. Im sorry, but im not gonna step on that.
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Unread postby Ultra666 » Tue Nov 3, 2015 5:41:02 am

So, what I am hearing from some is "we like the flags when they are used how we want them to be used, but if that changes we hate the flags"

And what I am saying is that a few times a season the flags are going to be used in a manner that you may not like. If that is a big issue, then you (or the people that sit around you) may need to rethink where they stand on match day.

Only they can change their situation.
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