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Pub League Feedback

Unread postby Skarpian » Wed Jul 3, 2013 11:52:13 am

Hello All,

I would like feedback on how you the players felt Pub League went. As we prepare for the fall I want to make sure we continue to improve upon what we have started.

We want to know how things went, by answer or bring up question like the ones listed below.

Where you happy with how were the team and rosters managed
Where you happy with how were the games were managed
Where you happy with how were the games were reffed
Where you happy with the field, ball, kit conditions
Where you happy with the locations and times
etc..., etc... you get the picture

There are many open questions that where feed back would be appreciated on the future of ECSPL. Such as:

How many players should be on a roster? How many is too many?
Should we expand the league to more teams? If we do how would the 11 a side work?
Should we scratch 11 a side in favor of a bigger league?
Should teams be allowed to stay together?
Can we allow prebuilt teams? How would they be judged skill wise to be make sure they are kept within the spirit of ECSPL?
The pricing for Pub League will move to the club pricing which is $10-12 per game on average? Would this affect your decision to play?

If you are not comfortable replying in the open forum please feel free to PM me or send an email to ECSFC@WEAREECS.COM.

Thanks in Advance for helping to make ECSPL a great league!

Brandon
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Unread postby timetoeatfood » Wed Jul 3, 2013 12:19:43 pm

Where you happy with how were the team and rosters managed - Mostly (See note below)
Where you happy with how were the games were managed - Yes
Where you happy with how were the games were reffed - Yes
Where you happy with the field, ball, kit conditions - Yes
Where you happy with the locations and times - Yes

Note - The biggest issue I had was sub management. Too many times, a sub would not be appropriate for the level of play and would singlehandedly affect the outcome of the game. This happened both in our favor and against us throughout the season. Simply put, a team in a beginner-friendly league should not be rewarded for having players absent. We either need tighter controls on subs or we need to alter the rules on subs (ie 'Subs can't score') because simply asking them to stay within the spirit of the league didn't work.

-How many players should be on a roster? How many is too many?

It depends on how many players show up. I think the number we had was mostly appropriate. The fact that it's a beginner-oriented league makes for a larger margin of absences.

-Should we expand the league to more teams? If we do how would the 11 a side work?

If the demand supports it, I'm in favor, but we had cases where enough people were absent that the only subs we could get were FC players.

-Should we scratch 11 a side in favor of a bigger league?

I'd be okay with this, but I like the 11 a side because it meant that you got to be on the same team as everyone in the league at some point. I feel the comraderie of Pub League is what sets it aside from any other generic league I've played in.

-Should teams be allowed to stay together?

I personally like this, as I love my team, but I also recognize that it would make it more difficult to bring in more beginners and still allow them to be competitive. I also like how shifting up the teams would allow management to keep the league balanced every season - the teams were nicely balanced this season, as the team with the fewest points took out the team with the most points several times.

-Can we allow prebuilt teams? How would they be judged skill wise to be make sure they are kept within the spirit of ECSPL?

I'm firmly against this. Too often I've seen teams enter a new league and just demolish the competition. Even if you throw some beginners onto the team, I could easily see them being left out in the cold while a few core players dominate the game (I'm seen it in other leagues)

-The pricing for Pub League will move to the club pricing which is $10-12 per game on average? Would this affect your decision to play?

I'd be okay with it, but eventually we're going to hit a point where people could get priced out.

-Final thoughts

I've always thought of this as a friendly beginner league and hope it stays as such. The level of play from the last week was much higher than the first week and we need to be cognizant of that moving forward. If beginners entering the league next season feel overmatched, then they won't come back. This may mean that management may have to tell people that they're too good for the league or eventually create split divisions.
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Unread postby cethe » Wed Jul 3, 2013 12:25:57 pm

overall i had a great experience. I can't wait for it to start up again in the fall

i was pretty happy with the teams & coaching

i know there was some discussion about subs & ringers, but IMO, i'd rather play than have to forfeit because of a lack of players.

balls aren't cheap, but we either need more as we kick 'em over fences without delaying the game, or we need a key to that fence (if we stay at the boys & girls club)

I did like the location overall, decent enough field and easy to get to even if you don't have a car

i would like to see a bigger league instead of the 11v11, it was rough to put all you had into your team game & still have something left for the big field game

pricing...$80-100 is my max for this at 10 weeks
shirts were cool, but jersey material would be better...i konw more money :)


timetoeatfood wrote:-Can we allow prebuilt teams? How would they be judged skill wise to be make sure they are kept within the spirit of ECSPL?

I'm firmly against this. Too often I've seen teams enter a new league and just demolish the competition. Even if you throw some beginners onto the team, I could easily see them being left out in the cold while a few core players dominate the game (I'm seen it in other leagues)


agreed.


timetoeatfood wrote:-Final thoughts

I've always thought of this as a friendly beginner league and hope it stays as such. The level of play from the last week was much higher than the first week and we need to be cognizant of that moving forward. If beginners entering the league next season feel overmatched, then they won't come back. This may mean that management may have to tell people that they're too good for the league or eventually create split divisions.


this is a tricky one, but maybe if there was some machination of "promotion" as it were to other ECS FC teams if you get "too good" for pub league?
i'd hate to see someone that wants to play the sport basically turned away because they're too good for pub league, but there's no easy way to play with the more competetive teams...not that i envy whoever has to sort & track that
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Unread postby supasta8301 » Wed Jul 3, 2013 12:35:06 pm

Where you happy with how were the team and rosters managed: Yes
Where you happy with how were the games were managed: Yes.
Where you happy with how were the games were reffed: Sometimes. Even though it was half pitch many times plays were missed, which is part of the game, but it caused major issues when a Official would make a call with his back to people and not be loud enough for their voice to carry to the people behind them, which caused anger and dissent.
Where you happy with the field, ball, kit conditions: As long as equipment rules were enforced effectively.
Where you happy with the locations and times: I would have preferred an earlier start time. That way there would be a whole day after Pub League. At 2:00, once you get home and take a shower it is 3:00 or 3:30 and most the day is gone.
etc..., etc... you get the picture

There are many open questions that where feed back would be appreciated on the future of ECSPL. Such as:

How many players should be on a roster? 12-14? That would reduce the need for "ringer" subs.
How many is too many? 15
Should we expand the league to more teams? If we do how would the 11 a side work? If it was doubled it would work out.
Should we scratch 11 a side in favor of a bigger league? I would be in favor.
Should teams be allowed to stay together? YES! We were told me got this at the EOS party and I believe it was unanimously agreed upon.
Can we allow prebuilt teams? Not pre-built, but homegrown.
How would they be judged skill wise to be make sure they are kept within the spirit of ECSPL? At the end of the season, if your skills are above PL standards, invite the player to be a volunteer next season.
The pricing for Pub League will move to the club pricing which is $10-12 per game on average? Would this affect your decision to play? If it crests over $100 it would be hard for me to come up the money.
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Unread postby timetoeatfood » Wed Jul 3, 2013 12:40:52 pm

cethe wrote:this is a tricky one, but maybe if there was some machination of "promotion" as it were to other ECS FC teams if you get "too good" for pub league?
i'd hate to see someone that wants to play the sport basically turned away because they're too good for pub league, but there's no easy way to play with the more competetive teams...not that i envy whoever has to sort & track that


The league has done a pretty good job with this - several people moved on to become coaches and referees for the Pub League and then occasionally play in the 11 v 11 game. I switched from a half-time GK to a full time field player (I played GK for White after the first PL season). I think there's ways to keep people involved. I also agree that I'd rather play than forfeit, but there needs to be some better controls on the more advanced subs. I also recognize that sometimes someone doesn't know how much mroe advanced they are immediately, but once you've dribbled through three people and scored twice, it's a little obvious, you know?
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Unread postby Skarpian » Wed Jul 3, 2013 12:52:25 pm

The response on the pre-built is interesting. essentially if we keep teams together, they are pre=built... so I'm not sure how keeping teams together will work. This honestly will be one of the hardest challenges to figure out before next season. If we added 2-4 new teams they would all be at a disadvantage to those that have stuck together... so that's where the idea of a friends built team sort of comes into play. They at least know each other then which can make all the difference in the world in team sports.

Again please continue to provide feedback as to me this is a league for the people so your opinions carry a lot of weight. And at the end of the day my goal is to keep Pub League to its core principles based off of that feedback.
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Unread postby Jabsco » Wed Jul 3, 2013 1:36:48 pm

Yeah, I'm not sure how keeping the teams the same would work either. As an individual I'd want it because I like my teammates and gelling together has been/will be fun, but you're going to run into some issues integrating new players (or the opposite when folks decide not to play). If you blow it up and let people form their own, I don't see that ending up with much parity.

A couple disjointed thoughts -
-There needs to be maybe fifteen minutes during the first week, before matches start, where someone can teach people basic things like how to do a throw in. It seemed like illegal throws actually got WORSE throughout the season.
-I don't know exactly how this would look, but I'd been thinking there should be a "full" league price and a "sub" price, or something. You don't want 15 on each side because not everyone gets minutes but paid the same, but there were too many short-handed days. If folks paid to show up and only be subs or something? I don't know, someone smarter can finish out that thought.

I'd probably be in favor of scrapping the 11v11 - many left before it, many were just gassed, and counting stats from that match was....odd. The give-a-shit-o-meter was pretty low.
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Unread postby blurrygil » Wed Jul 3, 2013 1:41:15 pm

Skarpian wrote:The response on the pre-built is interesting. essentially if we keep teams together, they are pre=built... so I'm not sure how keeping teams together will work. This honestly will be one of the hardest challenges to figure out before next season. If we added 2-4 new teams they would all be at a disadvantage to those that have stuck together... so that's where the idea of a friends built team sort of comes into play. They at least know each other then which can make all the difference in the world in team sports.

Again please continue to provide feedback as to me this is a league for the people so your opinions carry a lot of weight. And at the end of the day my goal is to keep Pub League to its core principles based off of that feedback.


I think the solution is quite simple:

Players that would sign up who are veterans of prior seasons, may select whether or not they'd like to remain on their previous team or not. It's almost a "contract decision", if you will. If they opt out, then they go into the Placement Pool at the start of the new season...easy as that.

I can see it now on our FB Page:

Looks like after showing great scoring ability and his current club being unable to reach an agreement, Tony Macias of Deatheaters FC is rumoured to make a transfer at the cost of £20m or more to the club of his liking. CD ¡Sobres!, with their new Mexican oil tycoon ownership, are looking to be the front-runners. When asked about their newly found interest, the new ownership was quoted as saying, "Macias fits well into our new campaign for finding good talent and ethnic propriety..." This was immediately surprising to reporters. When he was then asked about league-standards of player equality, he retorted, "Well...we don't need no white boys up in here. We're champions, we do what we want, ese!" :lol:
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Unread postby Jabsco » Wed Jul 3, 2013 1:44:35 pm

blurrygil wrote:
Players that would sign up who are veterans of prior seasons, may select whether or not they'd like to remain on their previous team or not. It's almost a "contract decision", if you will. If they opt out, then they go into the Placement Pool at the start of the new season...easy as that.


Yeah, so you can be the one who opts out and then gets placed back on the same team and everyone hates you because you opted out. (I'm not sure it addresses the actual issue, if there is one.)
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Unread postby bobdavisnpf » Wed Jul 3, 2013 2:00:39 pm

Where you happy with how were the team and rosters managed YES
Where you happy with how were the games were managed YES
Where you happy with how were the games were reffed YES
Where you happy with the field, ball, kit conditions YES
Where you happy with the locations and times YES
How many players should be on a roster? How many is too many? 12
Should we scratch 11 a side in favor of a bigger league? YES
Should teams be allowed to stay together? YES for the lesser-skilled players only. League Leadership should pull and re-allocate the best players at any point in the season, to balance the competition.
Can we allow prebuilt teams? How would they be judged skill wise to be make sure they are kept within the spirit of ECSPL? YES with the same caveat that the BEST players can be pulled and re-allocated at any point in the season, by League Leadership.
Any team winning 9 points in a row should expect to lose their best player to the lowest team in the table.
The pricing for Pub League will move to the club pricing which is $10-12 per game on average? Would this affect your decision to play? NO IMPACT, I'm fine with higher prices.

An option to buy ECS FC kits would be welcome. I proudly wear my ECS FC kit from the first Academy year, as do many other Pub-Leaguers. I'd like our fellow Pub-Leaguers to have that same option promoted to them.

Every time a team is added, every player is draft-eligible. The new coach and League Leadership conduct the draft in a smoke-filled room, tell the draftees, then deal with the whining by soliciting bribes.

I'd like to see if South Sound can pull together some kind of 2-3 team Pub League. Hard to do, I know. Expanding sites to include North Seattle and possibly even Eastside would be nice to but probably impossible due to field shortages and spreading the volunteers too thin.

We need to show more respect and less dissent to the officials. After-match talks and sanctions might help. This is Pub League - the officials are there to learn too. They will get their chance to learn about bitching and whining when they move up to more competitive matches. Let's keep this a fun, learning environment for them, too.
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Unread postby bobdavisnpf » Wed Jul 3, 2013 2:26:32 pm

An "Academy table" and a "League table" with promotion & relegation of players would be good, and could attract a lot of new players, if we could attract enough new people. There are some who felt they weren't up to the ECSPL standard of play, and did not come out, or did not come out a second time.

Personally if there were a table below the level of this year's Pub League, I would have happily transferred to it.
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Unread postby UnitedSounder » Wed Jul 3, 2013 2:34:00 pm

Where you happy with how were the team and rosters managed?
Yeah. After the first couple of weeks, I thought that the teams were imbalanced, but by the end of the season, the balance was definitely there, which points to a good job of team assignments. Roster management was tough some weeks, when we wouldn't have been able to field a team without the benefit of subs.

Where you happy with how were the games were managed?
Yep! Great job.

Where you happy with how were the games were reffed?
Yes. There was one game where the whistle and calls were quiet, which made for a lot of confusion for both teams. Overall, the quality was great.

Where you happy with the field, ball, kit conditions
Loved the field. Ball and kit were fine.

Where you happy with the locations and times
Location worked really well. Like lots of folks, earlier would be better for me, but it certainly wasn't a problem.

How many players should be on a roster? How many is too many?
Tough to tell. Some teams (like ours) had trouble fielding a full side. but others didn't seem to face the same issues.

Should we expand the league to more teams? If we do how would the 11 a side work?
Should we scratch 11 a side in favor of a bigger league?
I'd personally favor this. It was fun to be able to play with folks from other teams. It also got me to improve my play at left mid. But on the other hand, I certainly didn't consider them to be "competitive" matches, in the sense that (as Matt said) my give-a-shit-o-meter was fairly low.

Should teams be allowed to stay together?
I could go either way. I liked the folks on my team and would enjoy playing with them again. But there are a bunch of folks from the other teams I'd like to play with for a season, too.

Can we allow prebuilt teams? How would they be judged skill wise to be make sure they are kept within the spirit of ECSPL?
I'd rather not, and not just because of parity. I was new to ECS and it was great to meet folks through Pub League. I would have felt more awkward had I been the odd man out on a mostly prebuilt team. That said, I'm trying to recruit a complete beginner for next season and it would be cool to be able to play with him.

The pricing for Pub League will move to the club pricing which is $10-12 per game on average? Would this affect your decision to play?
Nope. I'll sell bodily fluids, if I have to, to play next season. (But at those prices I wouldn't have to.)


Range of skills?
As it's come up above, the wide discrepancy in skill level is tough to balance. Depending on the size of the league, I wonder if two divisions might make sense? That would help beginners get more playing time and more time on the ball when on-field and might help non-beginners develop more quickly, too. But the cost would be that beginners wouldn't be playing with better players- and I know that helped me a lot, not having played since high school.

It does bring up the question of who ECSPL is geared for. Is it just beginners or those who are only beginning to develop their skills? Or is it also for those who want to play on a regular basis (especially in a league that schedules around Sounders games) but doesn't have the time to commit to practicing during the week? I think it did a pretty good job of doing both, but there is obviously a tension between the goals.
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Unread postby dj10 » Wed Jul 3, 2013 2:43:04 pm

supasta8301 wrote:Should teams be allowed to stay together? YES! We were told me got this at the EOS party and I believe it was unanimously agreed upon.


That's not actually true. Definitely the majority of the people in that room were in favor of keeping the same teams, but it was not unanimous and it was not announced that it was definitely happening.

Personally I am against keeping the same teams. I think part of the fun of PL is meeting new people, coming up (together) with a team name/crest and learning to play together as a group. Keeping the same teams gives those original teams an advantage because they've had that time to learn to play together which seems unfair to the new teams/players. Also, it seems like a much bigger task for PL management to add new players into an already established team, trying to take into account the various skill levels. It's already a huge task and I think that would make it even more complicated. But I could be wrong on that one.

I guess it goes without saying, but I'm also against prebuilt teams. :)
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Unread postby Llarian » Wed Jul 3, 2013 2:49:23 pm

dj10 wrote:
supasta8301 wrote:Should teams be allowed to stay together? YES! We were told me got this at the EOS party and I believe it was unanimously agreed upon.


That's not actually true. Definitely the majority of the people in that room were in favor of keeping the same teams, but it was not unanimous and it was not announced that it was definitely happening.

Personally I am against keeping the same teams. I think part of the fun of PL is meeting new people, coming up (together) with a team name/crest and learning to play together as a group. Keeping the same teams gives those original teams an advantage because they've had that time to learn to play together which seems unfair to the new teams/players. Also, it seems like a much bigger task for PL management to add new players into an already established team, trying to take into account the various skill levels. It's already a huge task and I think that would make it even more complicated. But I could be wrong on that one.

I guess it goes without saying, but I'm also against prebuilt teams. :)


Danyeal hates us. :(
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Unread postby dj10 » Wed Jul 3, 2013 2:54:26 pm

Llarian wrote:
dj10 wrote:
supasta8301 wrote:Should teams be allowed to stay together? YES! We were told me got this at the EOS party and I believe it was unanimously agreed upon.


That's not actually true. Definitely the majority of the people in that room were in favor of keeping the same teams, but it was not unanimous and it was not announced that it was definitely happening.

Personally I am against keeping the same teams. I think part of the fun of PL is meeting new people, coming up (together) with a team name/crest and learning to play together as a group. Keeping the same teams gives those original teams an advantage because they've had that time to learn to play together which seems unfair to the new teams/players. Also, it seems like a much bigger task for PL management to add new players into an already established team, trying to take into account the various skill levels. It's already a huge task and I think that would make it even more complicated. But I could be wrong on that one.

I guess it goes without saying, but I'm also against prebuilt teams. :)


Danyeal hates us. :(


Oh dang, I was totally going to add in something about "Four Loko, please don't take that personally, blah blah blah..." and then I forgot! Oops. Yeah don't take it personally. I would be saying this no matter who was on my team, I swear!
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