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Another About Last Night

Unread postby Mel » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:56:44 am

So last night was the pride match vs Orlando.

ECS sang Take 'em All twice and Pride of the Sound responded by sitting and not participating.
So far I have seen counter-arguments that we may not know the songs origins/what it's about, and we can't be sensitive to all tragedies.

I saw Cocksparrer (this chants originators) back in 2009 when they came to the US for the first time in 30 years at Chaos in Tejas. I lived outside of Orlando for four years. I'm a queer activist.

I think beyond all of this it's important to look at that it was inappropriate for THIS match.
It was pride match against Orlando. It's days after the one year anniversary of the mass shooting during Pride month, targeting queer people of color. The deadliest attack by a single shooter in recent history on American soil.

The Orlando stadium has 49 rainbow seats to commemorate the victims.

OUR TIFO directly referenced the Pulse shooting AT THIS MATCH.
Image

I know it's uncomfortable to think that you may have unknowingly done something wrong. But before making a defensive response or making a, "you're a special snowflake" or "you're being too sensitive" response think that it's the queer subgroup that is saying, "hey this isn't okay". Just take a moment and breath and think about why that may be.

I don't believe that this was done out of malice or anything like that, but I do think it was tone deaf and inappropriate and I am disappointed.

I'd really like to see this be a productive conversation and not turn into blame and defense on both sides.
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Unread postby bgk » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:10:12 am

FWIW, I talked to one of the capos last night, and they were not aware of a request to not sing Take 'Em All.
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Unread postby Mel » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:14:02 am

With everything else happening last night that was a failing and oversight on our part to be sure.
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Unread postby futbolgirl » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:20:35 am

I was in charge of the capos. I would have loved to have a discussion about the expectations you and other members of PotS have of that song prior to the match. I did not mean to cause offense.

I will say, that my personal response to this horrific terrorist attack is to do MORE of what I normally do, not less. I believe terrorists want us to be afraid of ourselves and second guess our culture and our behaviors, to make us think that we some how brought these things upon ourselves. And when I think about that, I am so filled with anger and gall that all I want to do is stand up defiantly and be MORE, to do MORE of exactly what I was doing before. As the leader of game day, yesterday, that is the path I chose for us.

I hear you when you say it upset you and others. I am sorry for that. I am truly sorry for that.

Also, thank you very much for bringing this to the forums so we can have an open discussion about our culture. This is so valuable for our future members to go back and read about our evolution.
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Unread postby Zenken » Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:31:52 am

bgk wrote:FWIW, I talked to one of the capos last night, and they were not aware of a request to not sing Take 'Em All.


BS. I talked to em right be for half time and said, " hey I know it was song already in the first half but out respect for Orlando and the pulse shooting can we please not sing it again"? And she said that was fine by her and sound like a good idea. Fwd 30min and it's being song again.... Was pretty messed up honestly.
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Unread postby futbolgirl » Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:38:25 am

Zenken wrote:
bgk wrote:FWIW, I talked to one of the capos last night, and they were not aware of a request to not sing Take 'Em All.


BS. I talked to em right be for half time and said, " hey I know it was song already in the first half but out respect for Orlando and the pulse shooting can we please not sing it again"? And she said that was fine by her and sound like a good idea. Fwd 30min and it's being song again.... Was pretty messed up honestly.


That she is me. We get requests and complaints at every match. It can be very difficult to disseminate all of it during the match. For something like this, it would have been better to have a discussion before hand.

Again, I'm sorry my choices offended you.
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Unread postby bougiehoolie » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:26:10 pm

Zenken wrote:
bgk wrote:FWIW, I talked to one of the capos last night, and they were not aware of a request to not sing Take 'Em All.


BS. I talked to em right be for half time and said, " hey I know it was song already in the first half but out respect for Orlando and the pulse shooting can we please not sing it again"? And she said that was fine by her and sound like a good idea. Fwd 30min and it's being song again.... Was pretty messed up honestly.


To further address futbolgirl's response here, I was told by MULTIPLE people last night that "ECS Leadership was formally asked before the match to not sing 'Take 'Em All'" and I can unequivocally say that did not happen at any point before the match. None of the capos were aware of a request either, your comments at halftime notwithstanding. I was standing two feet away when you made them.

No one is trying to start an argument about this, genuinely.

Additionally, what futbolgirl and others who work with the capos do in every instance like this is relay what's appropriate as best as possible during run of play or breaks, and the capos do what they do based on the tempo of the match. It's (un)fortunately fluid. It doesn't always work out. In this case, you and others did not like a song choice that happened after you felt you made your point. That's loud and clear. What's important is that it was noticed and the discussion is happening behind the scenes. We're not perfect and don't claim to be.

Thanks for having a discussion on this.
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Unread postby vallenato78 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:45:30 pm

Hi guys!
Thanks for making the post to discuss this. Is the issue with the chant itself, or just using the chant for the match vs Orlando? I promise I am not trying to be a dick or start shit, I am genuinely curious.
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Unread postby Mel » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:03:12 pm

vallenato78 wrote:Hi guys!
Thanks for making the post to discuss this. Is the issue with the chant itself, or just using the chant for the match vs Orlando? I promise I am not trying to be a dick or start shit, I am genuinely curious.


For me personally it was just for this match. But I in no way can speak for everyone.
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Unread postby shieldk2 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:06:12 pm

I was on the stand for the second half and got the song started. I'd like to say that there was no malice intended and I was unaware of any request to not sing Take Em All. What I do know is that it was thoughtless, not just figuratively, but literally.

In that instance we were in between songs and there was some action on field that spurred me to get something going immediately, without thinking, I went straight into Take Em All. Why? Because that is a song that we as a group have song forever, everyone knows it, it gets loud, and is a source of inspiration for many ECS members. For those reasons it's often a song that I immediately go to when I need a song asap.

After a few times through I noticed the PotS members sitting in protest. I recognized the situation and immediately signaled for us to begin winding it down. We went through twice more, so I wouldn't catch everyone by surprise, and I attempted to signal to PotS that I understood without being too overt about it in public.

The way to ensure things like this do not repeat is what we are doing right here. Discussion on the forums (we don't air our laundry, we're too #AffluentECS for that) open and honest. Please make these concerns ahead of time in the future and hopefully they won't become issues. I also understand that the burden of informing me shouldn't lie solely at your feet and I apologize for that, but I'm usually a big dummy that's too caught up in the moment to be mindful enough to think of the bigger picture.
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Unread postby Nizzle » Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:25:39 pm

Thanks, Kyle. I thought that I had asked in slack that we don't sing it for this match, but was corrected; I had asked about Boys From Seattle. My bad. That being said, given the request was made due to the content, I kind of feel that nothing should have needed to be said. But that whole making assumptions thing, right?

I'm fully aware of the meaning of the song, but the words themselves feel too real to me right now. While I personally don't sing the song anymore, I generally don't have a problem with it sticking around. But. Singing vs Orlando during the Pride match feels tasteless, disrespectful, and just inappropriate.


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Unread postby Nikolai » Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:42:34 pm

It can never just be about the boys on the pitch and the soccer being played can it? The moment we need to push our team to hold onto the win, despite the unfortunate draw. It has to be about some outside situation doesn't it?

When you enter the stadium and take your spot on the Brougham End. Anything outside of that should be separate and disconnected. When we're getting into why or why not we should sing a certain song we're forgetting why we even sing in the first place. The purpose of us even being there is to 100% focus on what's in front of us and to do what we need to do to help our team win. Nothing else should have influence. The only question that should be had is "does this song at this time push the boys to a potential victory?". If the answer is yes then we sing it, if no then we don't. It really needs to be that simple.

It sounds insensitive because it is. The football gods don't care about anything but winners and losers. They don't care what day it is or what the FO decided to do for a money grab. Yes, the rainbow fanfare is about money too.

I think it needs to be reminded to everyone why we're there and if you're not completely there for 90 minutes with one purpose and one mindset then you're possibly in the wrong section. If you can't sepereate yourself from the outside world like most of us do, you might have bigger priorities. For many of us, supporting at a match is our escape from the grind and rat race of daily life. We come to forget everything else and focus on one purpose and one result. Now, don't get me wrong, I love my friends in POTS, they know this. However, there is a lot to learn about what being there in the section for the boys and the boys alone means. When we let a terrorist influence what we do on matchday in the moment of willing our club to victory then the terrorist has the last laugh. Like futbol girl said, we should do more and sing louder, not less.
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Unread postby bgk » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:42:56 pm

I'm about to get real intimate here for a minute:

There is no way for me to exist in the section that doesn't involve me being reminded of my queerness. Awash in a sea of heterosexuality, I know immediately that I am different. When I look across the section, I see angry yelling faces because of sport. Sometimes men in 122 will raise their fists about the game. For many of us in the LGBT community, that's an immediate trigger from past trauma. I process that within my own mental therapy tools, hugs and understanding with Pride Friends, and beer. People grab me from behind to celebrate a play I didn't see because of the flag, and it hits me there. Is this person going to hurt me? There is no way for me to exist the section in the conditions that you have set down.

Part of the emotion here is the conflict of safe spaces. We all understand why the Pulse Shooting, much like the Charleston Shooting, was so poignant; it's because they were hurt when they had their guard down. From a lot of what I've read, People in Pride of The Sound felt hurt in what was supposed to be at home. This game brought up a lot of collective community trauma. That song brought a painful memory into sharp relief. I did not question it when we sat down. I felt a sense of relief as we acknowledged the moment.

Some people have reacted emotionally because this was their safe place to let loose from the daily grind. Here they get to scream at the opposing team. We are all United, Una Communidad Unida pushing our team forward. There's this thought that people don't have to be responsible for their actions. (Ask any travel monkey.) It's this liminal space where they don't have to worry about stuff like offending people.

I cannot separate the Kevin-that-loves-soccer from the Kevin-that-loves-men from the Kevin-that-is-afraid-of-abuse from the Kevin-that-wants-to-bonfire-Portland. It is that Kevin that wore a rainbow shirt in Estadio Azteca, knowing it could be dangerous for him. It is that Kevin that rode home in a Mexican Police Van wondering if the past was about to repeat itself. It is that Kevin that welcomes Newbies into ECS as Row Six Scones on Bus Trips. It is that Kevin that raised the rainbow flag in stadiums where ¡Puto! rang out against him. It is that Kevin that organized the Loose Moose in Toronto. It is that Kevin that stands in the section with you.
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Unread postby shadesofgrey » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:57:25 pm

shieldk2 wrote:I was on the stand for the second half and got the song started. I'd like to say that there was no malice intended and I was unaware of any request to not sing Take Em All. What I do know is that it was thoughtless, not just figuratively, but literally.

In that instance we were in between songs and there was some action on field that spurred me to get something going immediately, without thinking, I went straight into Take Em All. Why? Because that is a song that we as a group have song forever, everyone knows it, it gets loud, and is a source of inspiration for many ECS members. For those reasons it's often a song that I immediately go to when I need a song asap.

After a few times through I noticed the PotS members sitting in protest. I recognized the situation and immediately signaled for us to begin winding it down. We went through twice more, so I wouldn't catch everyone by surprise, and I attempted to signal to PotS that I understood without being too overt about it in public.

The way to ensure things like this do not repeat is what we are doing right here. Discussion on the forums (we don't air our laundry, we're too #AffluentECS for that) open and honest. Please make these concerns ahead of time in the future and hopefully they won't become issues. I also understand that the burden of informing me shouldn't lie solely at your feet and I apologize for that, but I'm usually a big dummy that's too caught up in the moment to be mindful enough to think of the bigger picture.

Thank you for understanding.

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Unread postby shadesofgrey » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:09:10 pm

Nikolai wrote:It can never just be about the boys on the pitch and the soccer being played can it? The moment we need to push our team to hold onto the win, despite the unfortunate draw. It has to be about some outside situation doesn't it?

When you enter the stadium and take your spot on the Brougham End. Anything outside of that should be separate and disconnected. When we're getting into why or why not we should sing a certain song we're forgetting why we even sing in the first place. The purpose of us even being there is to 100% focus on what's in front of us and to do what we need to do to help our team win. Nothing else should have influence. The only question that should be had is "does this song at this time push the boys to a potential victory?". If the answer is yes then we sing it, if no then we don't. It really needs to be that simple.

It sounds insensitive because it is. The football gods don't care about anything but winners and losers. They don't care what day it is or what the FO decided to do for a money grab. Yes, the rainbow fanfare is about money too.

I think it needs to be reminded to everyone why we're there and if you're not completely there for 90 minutes with one purpose and one mindset then you're possibly in the wrong section. If you can't sepereate yourself from the outside world like most of us do, you might have bigger priorities. For many of us, supporting at a match is our escape from the grind and rat race of daily life. We come to forget everything else and focus on one purpose and one result. Now, don't get me wrong, I love my friends in POTS, they know this. However, there is a lot to learn about what being there in the section for the boys and the boys alone means. When we let a terrorist influence what we do on matchday in the moment of willing our club to victory then the terrorist has the last laugh. Like futbol girl said, we should do more and sing louder, not less.

To put it simply... You're wrong. It was ECS holding up a Tifo to show everyone that we are celebrating pride and we stand in solidarity with Orlando and the pulse Massacre. We may be there to push the team to win but we are also there to support each other and in doing so we need to create a safe space for all who come.

But I guess that could just be my opinion.

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